Marina Litvinenko, a Russian exile in the United Kingdom, is the widow of Alexander Litvinenko, a former KGB agent assassinated by Russian secret services in London in 2006 with polonium, a radioactive poison. Interviewed by La Vanguardia in a London tea room, Litvinenko positions herself against those in the West who advocate a negotiated solution to the war in Ukraine. The solution, she says, must go through arming Ukraine, isolating Russia, and ultimately the Russian people. She hopes that a civil war will end what she calls the ancient reign of lies and criminality in her long-suffering country. A 59-year-old economist, Litvinenko is a vivacious woman possessed of a strong sense of mission, both laughing and full of hatred towards Vladimir Putin, whom she identifies as responsible for the death of her husband.
What feelings does the war in Ukraine arouse in you?
My whole heart goes out to Ukraine. But this is also very bad for Russia. Putin has taken the first step towards the destruction of his own country. He doesn't think about his people, about the future of his country. He is a fundamentally insecure character whose only interest is to perpetuate himself in power.
Is that why he invaded Ukraine?
Every time Putin and his people need to get stronger they go to war. In 1999, in order to win the presidential elections, he started the second war in Chechnya; in 2008, in Georgia; in 2014, in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Now, throughout Ukraine. Always to hide the lousy management of him. If the economy goes bad, it is the fault of "the aggressors", not because he and his people have stolen money in his criminal state.
You said after your husband's assassination that the big difference between the West and Russia is that in Russia the life of the individual is not valued. Do you still think about it?
Yes! We expected this to change after the collapse of the Soviet Union. But it is still the same. In the USSR the message was: don't think about your own life, think about the future utopia. If you watch Soviet books or movies you will see that they always encourage you not to live for the future, but to die for the future. Totally unnatural. It has been all a lie, all simulated.
As in that famous phrase from the Soviet era, “I pretend that I work and you pretend that you pay me”?
Exact. They force you to live with the lie. People have learned to keep quiet, if not, they kill you; my husband is the example of this. People know they are not telling the truth, but he accepts it as the truth. Today and always in Russia, silence is a defensive mechanism, to survive, or at least not to lose your job. The individual has no power, he is at the mercy of the State. And everyone knows it. If Putin says that this is not a spoon [Litvinenko picks up a spoon] I will have to say that it is not a spoon. It is that in Russian society there have never been citizens. There have only been slaves.
But many Russians sincerely believe what Putin says about the war in Ukraine, don't they?
When the Soviet Union fell, a new ideology was needed. Control of power remained in the hands of KGB people, like Putin. They opted for the ideology of nationalism. If you listen to Putin's speeches during these 20 years, he always repeats the same thing: we are a strong country, we are a big country, but the West does not respect us, it hates us because we are Russians. The goal has been to create the feeling that being Russian is being a victim and to make people angry about it. The more Putin has been limiting the freedom of the people, the more insistent the propaganda of nationalism has been, like a poison, day after day, drop by drop. It is the most toxic weapon because it contaminates minds. One becomes convinced that this resentful, paranoid view of the world is not someone else's idea, but rather one's own.
How will the war end? With a negotiation?
Western governments must not negotiate with Putin. Stop talking about this. It will not work. Putin trusts no one and cannot be trusted. If you give him the idea that you want a negotiated solution, he will interpret it as weakness, nothing more. He will sign an agreement and betray him, returning to the charge with another military aggression. Don't think about this! The instruments to save the world, to save Ukraine, are two: arm Ukraine and isolate Russia.
And what many propose about the need to give Putin a dignified exit, to help him save face...?
Ridiculous! He doesn't need a dignified exit because he invents his own reality. And as for saving face, he has no face. He is absolutely cynical and amoral. I get very angry with people like Macron, who insists on the idea that he can talk to Putin. Let's not listen to them. Do not understand. They have information from their intelligence services, but they do not understand the Russian soul or the Ukrainian soul.
And what about people like Lula, the former president of Brazil, who says that NATO and Ukraine are just as responsible for the war as Putin?
It is so far away, on such a different continent, where it is so difficult to understand the history of Russia and Ukraine of the last hundred years, to understand the Ukrainians' desire for independence and freedom. I would ask you: would you feel happy if Brazil were under the yoke of Chile or Argentina?
But many who do not live as far from Ukraine as Lula think the same as him...
It is unbearable for me to have to hear these so-called arguments. If people tell me that Putin has some excuse for what he does, I stop talking to them. If they tell me that the expansion of NATO is a reason to kill people and destroy cities, I get up and leave. These people who attack and blame the United States for all this, please! America is not the issue! Russia is the subject.
For you, the ultimate goal is for the Russians to change their system of government?
Yes, and I am optimistic, although things will have to get worse before they get better. Economic sanctions will have their effect. And the day will come when those who fought in Ukraine will understand that they betrayed them. They will return home wanting to finish off those who abused them. There will be a civil war in Russia.
Do you really think so?
I can't be 100% sure, but that's how I see it. There are parallels with 1917, the year of the Bolshevik revolution: a collapsed economy, soldiers returning from war, mutilated, poor, abandoned. There are parallels too with the disastrous Russian war in Afghanistan, which helped hasten the end of the Soviet Union. And then, to see what can happen in the neighboring states, loyal to Putin until now, such as Kazakhstan or Belarus. Putin may have serious problems on many fronts.
Aren't you worried about the nuclear option?
Putin does not have the decision to push the nuclear button in his exclusive power. There are at least seven stages to get through before you get to that. I think if he gives the order, it will be the last day of his life.
Is Putin crazy?
Yes. Merkel said four years ago that she lives in another reality. It is true. And it is also a reality of another century. Putin continues with his fantasies of empire, collecting land. He has that medieval idea that power and money are achieved by conquering territory. What power or money do you get from conquering cities that you have reduced to ruins, like Mariupol?
Is it a bad time to be Russian?
Not for those who take responsibility. But you have to prove it, you have to fight to remove the cancer. I am proud to be Russian. I am proud to be the wife of Alexander Litvinenko. He was an idealist who joined the KGB in 1991 with the purpose of building a truly great country with a rule of law, which Russia has never had. I have an idea that I fight for, which is justice and freedom. I have learned that being able to express the truth freely is very important, and I don't know if everyone in the West has appreciated that.
