The former president of the government José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero (Valladolid, 1960) has become one of the best assets for the socialists. The former president, who dedicated himself to the last general elections and is now doing so in defending the amnesty, assures that the fact that so many former presidents are so critical of the Government has motivated him.
What consequences will the amnesty law and the political agreement between the PSOE and Junts have?
In the political process, the path is made by walking. This is a new beginning. We are thus situated in 2006, the moment of approval of the Statute, when there was a commitment between Catalonia and Spain. And since 2010 there has not been another moment of political agreement. Now it is beginning to rebuild. And that is the decisive thing.
Did it all start when you said that you would support the Statute that came out of Parliament and you couldn't comply with it?
When I said that at a rally in 2003, I was obviously referring to the fact that I would support Catalonia having a new Statute, which would be approved by the Parliament. Because the question at that time was whether the PSOE was going to support Pasqual Maragall in his proposal for a new Statute. The big problem is that this plural and diverse Spain continues not to be recognized by those who decided to fight against the Estatut, with the collection of PP signatures. The theory that equality is broken is a simple, hypocritical and fallacious discourse. Therein lies the origin of everything, in the attitude of the right, which seeks to deny our plurinationality.
You complain about the PP, but what do you think of the courts? From the ruling of the TC on the Statute and the attitude of the judges now with the amnesty?
The judiciary tends to be conservative. But judges do not make laws. The ruling of the Constitutional Court must be respected, but many times judicial decisions produce political effects, and that ruling produced a clash of legitimacy between the Constitutional Court that applies the law and the Catalans who had voted for the Statute in a referendum. From there, a knot of enormous difficulty is created to reconcile, to share, between the independence forces and the Spanish political system. Since the ruling, things have happened and there has been no anticipatory action.
The solution that was given was to judicialize the conflict, can the same thing happen now?
When the events occur in October 2017, two measures are taken, one, 155, and another, the judicial, criminal one. I defend the principle of minimum intervention of criminal law. And much more when it comes to acts with a political origin. That doesn't solve it. The political problem is still there. The PSOE is always the integrating vertex in our territorial confrontations, which have reached a serious intensity only with the PP in government. It happened with the Ibarretxe plan, in Aznar's era, and later, with Catalonia in Rajoy's era. To face the consequences of the Ibarretxe plan I opted for dialogue. I even repealed the consideration of a crime for illegally calling a referendum. The dialogue worked, which requires conviction and patience. And recognize the other.
Junts refuses to reject the unilateral route. Do you think they will do it again?
The things that have value in life are those that are not demanded or imposed, but rather arise of their own volition. The great virtue of this pact between the PSOE and four pro-independence or nationalist parties is that they have a considerable distance. These are virtuous pacts, reserved for brave leaders, willing to do things that will remain in history. This moment goes beyond the investiture and the amnesty. Since there were no blood crimes or anything like that, the amnesty is intellectually and morally reasonable. This investiture is like the chance of destiny, as if Catalan and Spanish society had said to the politicians: “Hey, you have a pending problem here that you can now address.”
The PP talks a lot about the immorality of this agreement and adds that the State will be defenseless if the independentists do it again.
It's not going to happen, because history does not repeat itself. It's not going to happen. Basically it is as if society had given a mandate on 23-J for the PSOE to make an effort towards the stability of plurinationality and to establish new foundations. This is the essential issue. This is what the investiture is about. It's not that the president wants to repeat at all costs. He's been there for five years now! That is a very simple opinion... Regarding morality, I believe in a secular democracy. No one has to give moral lessons nor does anyone set moral standards. These are political standards, democratic and constitutional principles. In any case, although the PP is not going to help, it will do so in the medium term. Because one of the best things that is going to happen is that the PP will start flirting with Junts. As on other occasions, the PSOE has made reforms for which we were reviled, outlawed, traitors to Spain, to morality, to law, to order... and then the PP enjoys them. It reminds me, saving the distance, of homosexual marriage. I was the evil destroyer of the family. The PP goes to the Constitutional Court, says it is a horror and it turns out that they are almost the ones who have enjoyed that law the most. Maybe now they exaggerate a little more, but what beats is the same.
The speech of the PP and Vox, the reaction of the judges, the protests in front of the socialist headquarters... is an unbearable climate being created to face the legislature?
I don't believe it. The investiture will arrive and the 178 deputies who approve it and vote for the amnesty law will not have been appointed by the evil one. No, they are elected by the citizens, and the laws in a democracy are applied. When you tend to radicalize, to exaggerate, to invoke morality, the end of the world and democracy, it is because you have a lack of rational ideas.
Here it is not only the PP that shouts to the sky. Some in the PSOE also think the same.
The PSOE has spoken forcefully through its members. If we have 144 years of history it is because of the people. The PSOE has never been Felipe González, Zapatero, or Sánchez. The PSOE is the society that supports the socialist ideal.
Well, it seems that some like González in the PSOE or Aznar in the PP want to mark the step for Sánchez or Feijóo.
The fact that there are several presidents who are so critical of the Government has motivated me. While Rajoy was president, I was cautious. I didn't make any criticism of him. And outside my country, less so. But it is novel that a former president decisively supports a president. It's not very common.
Because?
Because whoever has been president believes that he is the one who has done it best. One has a certain itch to say: what are they going to say to me if I saw this? It's true that you've lived through almost everything, but politics matters more to me than power. And I care about the destiny of this country and that of the Socialist Party, which is the party that most resembles Spain and Catalonia. Can anyone imagine if a PSOE did not exist with this capacity to dialogue with independentists, sharing the constitutional values that the PP shares? Can anyone imagine that this party would not be in Catalonia or Euskadi?
Is what has been signed between the PSOE and Junts a State pact for you?
For me it is a great State pact in which the PP should be. It has always been evident that the involvement of nationalist parties in governability was very important. It has been done with ERC, with the PNV, with Bildu. And Junts was missing. The amnesty provokes a lot of passion, but what is important is the normalization of political dialogue. We must face what began in 2010 and culminated in 2017.
But a State pact without the PP is not such.
The PP believes that it is closer to Junts for ideological reasons. With which the friction will begin. That's going to be very positive. What's more, look, I wouldn't have cried foul if the PP had achieved the investiture with Junts. Absolutely. It would have even seemed like a brave step to me.
The problem may be that the dialogue that opens now will not be fruitful because the independence movement insists on the self-determination referendum and the PSOE does not. Or do you see a referendum possible in the future?
I don't contemplate it. Politics is the capacity for initiative and proposal. The PSOE, but also Sumar and I hope the PP comes up with something, we have to put initiatives on the table. For example, Catalan being an official language in the EU is going to be a positive factor because it is a very profound recognition of Catalonia by the Spanish State. There is a way to go there. And as for the PP, there are those little things that Feijóo sometimes misses... about normalizing the relationship with the nationalists, respecting Puigdemont... There is a point of hope there.
Outside Catalonia it is said that there is favorable treatment for Catalans, and in Catalonia, that Spain steals from us. How to combat that?
I hope that the debate in this legislature will lead to a rationalization. That Spain steals from us or that Catalonia takes everything is incompatible at the same time. In every composite or federal State, resources are debated. It is unfair to say that in Catalonia they are selfish because it is evident that they have a per capita income that makes them contribute to the solidarity fund. And “Spain steals from us” is unacceptable because if we are in a common project we must assume solidarity. The independentistas do not discuss it, they discuss how much and how it is managed. But that does not break equality. Spaniards continue to have the same rights. There is also a unique effect of economic concentration in the Community of Madrid, as occurs in other European capitals. I have a friend from León who told me: How are they the same? So, why are the Congress, the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the Court of Accounts, all the ministries, all the organizations, the great museums in Madrid? I want that if we are equal, they start sharing. Such simplistic messages offend intelligence.
And what should be the fit of Catalonia in Spain?
Well, that's what we have to put on the table. I believe that democratic Spain tends towards unity based on the recognition of national diversity, of language... We are different, but there is a common history. I am convinced that the Government and the nationalist parties will be able to build. That is going to require hours and hours of dialogue.
What do you think of the dialogue being carried out with mediators?
That seems fine to me. They don't decide. I have been in processes with mediators and I have been a mediator. They don't decide, but they help. They almost act as confessors for both parties. And if they also have the ability to propose constructive ideas, that's fine with me.
You talk a lot about the plurinational State, but we do not have the institutions of a plurinational State. The PSOE has not dared to make major changes in that sense.
He hasn't dared, no. The thing is that our Constitution requires aggravated majorities and without the support of the PP it cannot be done. But even so, without reforms to the Constitution, many things can be done. National communities can be put on the same line as the process of forming the will of the State in Europe. That is the path to explore.
Lately he claims to have achieved the end of ETA. He even says that he thought of an amnesty to put an end to the terrorist gang. Would he have achieved it? Would they have left him?
Here it is set up depending on who is speaking at any given moment. Aznar negotiated with ETA and called it the “Basque national liberation movement.” Imagine if we had said it. He also spoke of generosity. He transferred ETA prisoners, he granted third degrees... What was Mr. Aznar talking about when he referred to generosity? Well, pardons or amnesty. Every president who has had to deal with ETA terrorism had the possibility of an amnesty in mind. But yes, I have claimed that it was under my government that ETA ended. And it will be under a Pedro Sánchez government when we see a stabilization of diverse Spain and specifically Catalonia. This means a decisive step to resolve the historical conflict. I firmly believe it. And I know that it will have the support of the vast majority of the citizens of Catalonia because the things that change history are those that cost a lot to do and in which you give yourself with courage and bravery. Only the hours of dialogue that are taking place in this investiture process are years that we are recovering from incommunication.
Do you think that what is being put together now by the PSOE with its interlocutors can last four years?
Yes. I have no doubt. Do you know why? Because since we all have the feeling that it is quite crucial, since those who want to destroy it are going to be very extremist, that galvanizes dialogue. Spain is in the best moment in its history.
Should a politician keep his word or can he change his mind on important things?
I'm a big fan of Martin Wolf of the Financial Times. He has just published a book in which he says: I have changed my mind many times throughout my life. He who does not change his mind does not think. But I have never changed my values. Those who gave him his parents, by the way, persecuted by the Nazis. Whoever attacks another in politics for changing his mind is five minutes away from changing his mind himself. I have blind faith in democracy. If I didn't believe that arguments matter and ideas transform people's will, this would be unbearable. Anyway, I was surprised that the Spanish Episcopal Conference ruled against the amnesty. Because if I have experienced something in my life, it is that the Vatican is in conflict processes, defending amnesties, pardons. I was about to write to the Pope. The game of democracy is a permanent reconciliation. And an amnesty is an act of collective contrition.
