Manfred Weber (Niederhatzkofen, 1972) is the president of the European People's Party (EPP). Before traveling to Barcelona to participate this Monday in the "Road to Recovery" event, where he will coincide with Alberto Núñez Feijóo and other political and economic figures, he answered the questions of La Vanguard.
How do you assess last Wednesday's debate in the European Parliament on the rule of law in Spain? Are you satisfied with the result?
For us, as EPP, it was important to maintain an exchange of views on the issue. I was quite surprised that the left was not even willing to have a debate in Europe. We do not judge, we do not make a definitive judgement, because the process is underway, but at least debate, taking into account that millions of people, hundreds of thousands of them in the streets, and many civil society organizations are asking Europe to speak out about what is happening. That is why I am glad that the debate took place. We understand that it is not a Spanish issue, but a broader one. Deputies of many nationalities spoke for the EPP, for example, from Poland, where we had a strong fight in favor of the rule of law. This is, therefore, a European issue.
But Justice Commissioner Didier Reynders said that the Catalan issue is an internal matter for Spain and only announced that he would be vigilant with the amnesty law. It's enough?
Well, the Commission must be fact-based and precise throughout the procedure. And that is why I am very happy that he sent a letter already a week after we had the final agreement (between the PSOE and Junts) in which he raised questions. We know that the process in Congress has just begun and there will be amendments. We will see its development, which must be seriously analyzed by the Commission, and I fully support it. I see in the Commission that they have questions, that they are worried. And they have also heard that Reynders has said publicly that it will not be the last debate about Spain. He is very clear that follow-up is necessary.
Only around fifty MEPs participated in the debate, most of them Spanish, but also some from the extreme right from countries such as Poland and Hungary. Are you not afraid that the extreme right will capitalize on the opposition to the amnesty in Spain?
Well, I do what I believe in. I do not look at the left, which is blind to Spain's problems, and I do not look at the right-wing extremists, who will never be reasonable partners in this political process. What I am going to do is defend our positioning. And my party is Donald Tusk's party. We fired Jaroslaw Kaczynski in Poland a few weeks ago. That is the DNA of the EPP, which fights for the rule of law throughout Europe. And the socialists now have big problems in Spain, also in Portugal, with the resignation of António Costa, and in Slovakia, where Robert Fico's party has formed a government with right-wing extremists. I have a clear position for the EPP: we defend the rule of law and fight corruption across Europe. And I am sure that in Spain, finally, the rule of law and Alberto Núñez Feijóo's approach will triumph.
But do you really believe that the situation in Spain is comparable to that of Poland and Hungary?
Well, it always starts with a first step. A negative path begins with a bad, wrong first step. That's why we have to be very, very critical. My main concern is that we now have a political agreement on the table. I am not talking about the law, because we have to wait for the amendments. But we have a political agreement on the table signed by the leader of the PSOE, Pedro Sánchez. I know it was signed in Brussels, but in a way, indirectly, he supported it. And in that text, we have the proposal to establish a special commission in Congress to verify the rulings of the independent courts. And this is fundamentally breaking the rule of law. It is a worrying step. We have to be vigilant. And we are not alone, many civil society movements are taking a stand, judges, courts, etc. I receive them, Reynders receives them, Ursula von der Leyen receives them. At least we have to listen, worry, discuss, evaluate. The socialists ask us to close our eyes. But I am surprised that the implementation of this political agreement is controlled by someone from Geneva. But what madness is this! May the new Spanish Government be in the hands of a political body that meets monthly in Geneva! Tell me: is this normal? I do not think that's normal. That gives us an idea that something is wrong in Spain.
Do you think there is a “selective application” of community law depending on the color of the governments?
I hope not. That is why I fully defend the Commission's procedure. I myself, together with socialists and liberals, have fought for a rule of law mechanism that would also use European taxpayers' money as a tool to stabilize the principle of the rule of law in Europe. I was glad that we stopped sending money to Hungary and Poland to defend the rule of law. There is a common understanding among the centrist parties, the pro-European democratic parties, that we have to defend the basic principles of the rule of law.
What doubts does the amnesty raise in your mind?
Amnesty, as a basic consideration, as a basic principle, is true that it is also given as an option in other countries. But if we look, for example, in my country, in Germany, it is only possible for very specific cases. It is not a tradition in Europe that it is used for more than a thousand people, some of them with serious crimes on their record. In a way, it's something unique. We had a similar case in Romania, where it was also used for political issues to form a government. And it finally failed when Jean-Claude Juncker intervened. So that is why the amnesty in Spain is not comparable with any of the normal procedures that we have in the rest of Europe.
You said in the European debate that the Spanish Government is legitimate, do you think that the Spanish PP has internalized this idea?
I want to be very clear. Pedro Sánchez is the president of the Government of Spain. We fully respect the decision of the Spanish Parliament, which was democratically elected. So there is no doubt about it. And when he comes to Strasbourg in December, he will be received in the European Parliament as a representative of an extremely important country for the European Union such as Spain. And there is no doubt for us.
You are Bavarian and Germany is a federal state. What would be, in your opinion, the solution to the territorial conflict in Spain?
I already said in my speech in Strasbourg that, especially as a Bavarian, we are very proud of our regional identity. But neither in Bavaria nor in South Tyrol does there exist the level of self-government that Catalonia already has today. There is already a lot of freedom, a lot of political space to express regional identity strongly. What Spain and Europe need at this moment is unity. What worries me most is that we are so self-absorbed at this moment in history, when war and crisis approach our borders. We face the challenge of globalization, that China is becoming a giant and we are weakening as Europeans. So our economic strength is at stake. Next year Donald Trump will probably return and we risk even having a security problem in NATO. Those are the real challenges. And right now, what worries me is that we are only debating inwards, looking at our small problems and our small perspective. I am a proud Bavarian, I am a German citizen and I am a convinced European. Don't make this a division. That's what I defend. That is what my party defends. And Feijóo also defends this. He also has a strong regional identity, but he is Spanish and he is a proud European.
What is your relationship with Ursula von der Leyen like? Can the EPP's support for her re-election as president of the European Commission be taken for granted or are you willing to challenge her for leadership?
She is a strong Commission President, she is the EPP President for the European Commission, and she is currently considering whether she wants to run again or not. We respect it. If she decides to run again, I think she has great support in the PPE family. We are proud of what we did in the pandemic, for example with the Recovery and Resilience Fund. We show a lot of solidarity in Europe, also in unity in the face of Vladimir Putin's attack on freedom and democracy in Ukraine. Von der Leyen thus has a lot to contribute to a united EPP. We will name our main candidate at the Bucharest congress in March next year. And taking into account the last elections, also in Spain, the EPP has a good chance of becoming number one in Europe again.
Who would you feel more comfortable making an agreement with, with the socialists and liberals, as at present, or with parties like those of Giorgia Meloni in Italy, Santiago Abascal in Spain or Geert Wilders in the Netherlands?
Well, taking into account the Spanish experience, a lot depends on the socialists. Feijóo proposed a government of national unity. In Spain he has many important challenges ahead of him. Even before the amnesty law, the European Commission's report on the rule of law was very critical of Spain, and of the situation in the Judiciary. Feijóo proposed a two-year government, with socialists and the PP, to carry out the most important reforms in the country, and Sánchez rejected it. So what can I say? That's how socialists are. They are putting their career, their selfishness, above unity, in order to heal some of the wounds of Spanish society. The socialists are doing the opposite. And that also has an impact at the European level. Sánchez overshadowed the last European Council with his national selfishness, with his only idea of governing and maintaining his position. And also the debate about Hamas and Israel. He insisted on his ideas, for which he needs his left-wing coalition partners, some of them quite anti-Semitic. It is quite worrying, and that is the face of the socialists that I see today. If you ask me, I want to keep Europe united. But you have to ask Sánchez, who said: "Please do everything possible to prevent Vox from coming to power." But he was not willing to do it, to form a coalition with the PP that would have been the only and best way to exclude Vox and other extremists such as the separatists of Catalonia from access to power. I am willing to work with anyone who loves Europe and wants to defend unity, but I don't see that today in the Spanish socialist camp.
Do you, then, as leader of the PP in Europe, maintain the intention of approaching Giorgia Melloni's party in Italy?
Yes, we are ruling in Italy together with Giorgia Meloni. Antonio Tajani, who will also be in Barcelona on Monday, is Minister of Foreign Affairs of Italy and president of Forza Italia. We have clearly defined three principles for any form of government in which we participate as EPP: the governing parties must be pro-European, and in the Italian case, actually, they must be pro-Ukraine and pro-Israel at the moment, and they must be pro-State of law. And the three criteria fully coincide in the Italian Government. So this is a normal center-right majority in Italy that is governing and has a mandate from the people. Instead, these three criteria fundamentally exclude any cooperation with the German AFD, with Marine Le Pen in France or with Kaczynski in Poland. They are our enemies. They want to destroy Europe. In Germany, AFD leaders say publicly: "This Europe must die." I tell you that I will always fight for this Europe. It's my Europe. It is a Christian democratic Europe. We have built this Europe. That's our DNA. That's what we stand for. Therefore, if the parties respect these principles, the rule of law, Europe and Ukraine, Israel, then they can be our partners.
What are the main challenges facing Europe in these moments of geopolitical instability and what will be the axes of the EPP's proposals in the next campaign?
The themes for the next five years are driven by the people's perspective. The first point is that we still have an ongoing migration crisis across Europe. We must control the numbers. The State decides who comes and not the traffickers. Thank God, we have a stable situation in Spain and Morocco, but we know the situation in Melilla, in Lampedusa and on the Greek borders with Turkey, so we continue to have problems. The second is the cost of living, inflation. People are losing their economic security, and that is why we have to invest in the economic strengthening of Europe. We need to create decent-income jobs, not low-income jobs. And that is why we need more competitiveness. And the third pillar is everything related to security. With Trump back in the White House in mind, Europe must be able to defend itself. We have to build a European defense pillar. I want to work together with the Americans. I am a pro-NATO politician, there is no doubt about that. I hope that the United States is on our side, but I can no longer be 100% sure of this. And that is why we have to be prepared to defend ourselves, so that in times of war we keep alive the promise that we are a zone of peace.
