Artur Mas (Barcelona, 1956) is very critical of the current situation of independence. He is also with the Government and points out that after years of a "supposedly progressive" executive, no progress has been made to resolve the political conflict and end the "judicial or economic repression." Mas, who had his house seized for years to deal with the claim of the Court of Accounts for 9-N, continues the legal battle for the foreign action of the procés.
When does the process start?
In 2012 when three events occur. The first is the manifestation of the Dyad. Then Rajoy's no to the fiscal pact and the third, the early elections that he called to find out the support that the right to decide has, which ended up being backed by 80%, when the PSC was still in favor. At the party level, the result did not go well for me.
Is a consultation convened on 9-N 2014 and was the 2017 one wanted to be binding?
The idea of 9-N is that it would not have an immediate consequence. It was a consultation that had to take us to another stage that was the plebiscitary elections. 1-O was like 9-N, but it was said that the result was binding and if yes won, independence would be declared automatically.
It was not so
No, it was not. But the approach was different and everything is a chain. In 2012 the procés begins, then in 2014 comes the consultation of 9-N, Junts pel Sí and the plebiscite of September 2015. Then 2017, on October 1 and what we have known. A chain of decisions until October that takes us up and from that moment on I think the sovereignist project is going down.
Were all the decisions good?
Not all of them, but there are more good ones than bad until October 2017. Since then the subject is more debatable
In what sense?
With the 155 the unit and the joint list are broken. It was not a good decision and since then the discussion, the envy, the differences in strategies, the non-recognition of leadership, the politics in Madrid...
Did you ever think you could agree on a fiscal pact?
The PP had an absolute majority and already knew that it would not come out with the signed agreement, but it hoped that they would not have such political myopia and a working group would be created. They slammed the door on us and we had to change course. I did not decide alone, I called elections to see if the Catalans endorsed it and we entered a new screen because from defending autonomy we went on to defend sovereignty.
But in Madrid nothing changed...
Madrid raised the decibels of repression, even brutality.
Did the mobilizations against the cuts in your Government have nothing to do with the change of course towards independence?
If so, why do we now have a pro-independence majority in the Government when the economic situation is different? The cuts were made because the European recipe was austerity. The second origin was when they forced Spain to cut back and centrifuge austerity towards municipalities and communities and in Catalonia it was done more because we started from the tripartite heritage. We were in debt up to our ears.
How did you experience 1-O?
It represented great joy and gratification. I saw a heroic attitude on the part of the country defending the polls and schools. With a load of illusion and then I saw the other side with sadness and anger at an intransigent, repressive and violent State.
Didn't you expect the police charges?
It was a possibility, but I thought that the State would be more intelligent and could end up ridiculing the new vote by saying that if we wanted to, we would do it and that the Government would not listen to us. What made the world go around was the Police and the Civil Guard slapping and distributing.
Did you talk to Puigdemont to call elections?
I lived it up close and did what it could. Having decided to call elections in the end, he did not do it and understanding the reasons, it was a non-shared decision. In the end, environmental pressure prevailed, Twitter, Madrid's cocky attitude and internal distrust...
Is 1-O a mandate?
It is a peak to reach another higher peak, which is for Catalonia to become an independent country in a federal Europe. It is very complicated but the alternative is to settle for an increasingly smaller, controlled autonomy and to be more residual. Either we settle for it or we set ourselves a very complicated goal that gives you a path if you know how to follow it as it should.
And how should it be traversed?
You must know where you are going, how you get there, a common and shared path and not each one on their own. You must have someone to guide you and with leadership recognized by all. Now we have neither the final shared objective, nor the way to get there, nor the recognized leadership. And we won't get there
Do these requirements in current Catalan politics seem unattainable?
They are not. It was possible in the first years of the procés with pushes, distrust and without being paradise but it was the way. Junts pel Sí was created, which brought together almost the entire pro-sovereignty world, even people who came from the PSC or Initiative.
Is the complicated relationship between ERCy Junts the heir to 1-O?
It already existed, but from that moment it overflowed and we are still there
Do you think that Puigdemont should take a definitive step to the side?
He already has. Maybe not in the explicit way that I did. He is a reference and is out in a tough personal condition and has to be taken into account for the resolution of the conflict. It is not only about how the prisoners get out, but also about how the exiles return and the repression ends through trials or the Court of Accounts.
Is this what is being addressed at the dialogue table?
The advances are what they are. There have been some pardons. Nothing more. I do not devalue it, but the political conflict is not resolved. In addition to the fact that there is no repression or judicialization, a political solution must be proposed. The dialogue table is light years away from reaching that.
Do you think the Government will break?
I think not because I don't want to. I understand that Junts tightens but does not break. If there is a rupture, how will we make it credible that we want to achieve independence?
Can convergent space be recomposed?
I experienced the disintegration as a fatality. Internal unity could not be guaranteed and that had never happened. I'm sorry and I'm bad. Hopefully this reunification will come about.
Where is independence going?
It is somewhere in between. I'm not saying it's in no man's land. There is no sign to suggest that we can take the road seriously. Another thing are statements and gestures. We are more spectators than actors to make things work.
December 27, 2010 – January 12, 2016
