One year after the start of the war in Ukraine, La Vanguardia interviewed Defense Minister Margarita Robles in Madrid to take stock of what happened and Spain's participation in NATO initiatives to support Ukraine.
In strictly military terms, at what stage is the war?
Vladimir Putin wanted it to last ten days and he was wrong. A year later, Russia is suffering tremendous casualties. Everything suggests that we are going to witness a very bloody spring. It is not a war of army against army, it is a war against the Ukrainian civilian population. They are massacring her.
Are there reliable figures available on the number of victims on both sides?
In a war, we can never believe the figures one hundred percent. These are very high figures: both in the field of the Russian military and the Ukrainian civilian population: thousands and thousands. It is being a war of a special cruelty. Military experts argue that the Russian army is fighting as if it were still in World War I.
Would the war have already ended without Western help to Ukraine?
The Ukrainian people are heroic. He is willing to resist. Aid has greatly strengthened that resistance. The sending of material has been essential. It is absolutely necessary.
How do you assess the recent visit of the President of the United States to Kyiv?
Symbolically it is very important, it is the expression of seamless support. With this visit, and also with that of President Pedro Sánchez, Putin is being told that we defend human rights.
How do you assess Vladimir Putin's last speech?
He stressed that he does not want peace. He is well aware that he is losing this battle. The absolutely threatening expressions of him saying that "the war is not going to end" and that Russia is unbeatable show that he is a danger to humanity.
When will it be considered that the possibility of negotiation exists?
The first one who has to decide that he is going to negotiate is Putin, who has clearly said that he is going to continue until the end. We all want a ceasefire, but the Russian president has made it very clear, without any doubt, that he wants to continue this war. The cost is the lives of thousands of Ukrainians, but also of many Russians who are being forced to face death for a cause that they neither understand nor understand, because it is neither fair nor legitimate.
Is concern about the nuclear threat now greater?
We think that we are not going to reach that stage because it would be terribly dramatic for humanity. But in Putin's head anything can happen. We do not have data to indicate that this step is going to be taken.
There are nuances between the positions of the European partners. They do not say the same France and Poland, Germany and the Baltic republics. What are the nuances of Spain?
In essence we all agree. The nuances respond more to geographical issues than to questions of approach. The countries that have a border with Russia or that lived under Soviet domination are much more sensitive than the countries of southern Europe.
¿China?
Although it is formally transmitting support to Russia, there has been no shipment of material. They have submitted a document. I think that China can play an important role in the future, if it makes Russia see that it has taken a wrong path.
Brazil, Lula's Brazil, has proposed acting as a mediator. How do you see it?
We cannot fool ourselves: Putin has never wanted mediators. All of us who want peace are trying to find loopholes, but we are hitting a wall. He doesn't want any kind of negotiation.
Experts say that there is a lack of ammunition on both sides. Is the Spanish government in favor of a common European purchase?
Ammunition is lacking in all countries and what the European Union has proposed seems reasonable: we are permanently in collaboration with other countries. Ukraine needs to defend itself.
His government partners have warned in recent weeks that the escalation of the war, if it is not stopped, could lead to the sending of Spanish troops to Ukraine. Do you consider this scenario feasible?
It is an absolutely impossible scenario; non-existent. Spanish soldiers would only intervene if there was an aggression against a NATO country. Never, ever, will any troops from a NATO country, and Spain is one of them, go to participate in the war in Ukraine. Never never. I want to make it very clear, very clear. Before speaking, you must know the NATO treaty and know that the troops of a member country only intervene if another member country is attacked and asks for help [invoking article 5 of the founding treaty].
Leopard tanks being such valuable war material, how come a good number of them were in retirement in Spain?
Of the Leopard there are several series: the 2A4 and the 2A6. During the years of the Popular Party government, very little was invested in defense. The 2A4s that were stored in Zaragoza in lamentable conditions are being repaired. The tuning will finish soon. That will allow them to be integrated into a battalion along with tanks donated by other countries. At the same time, we have already begun the work of training the crews of these Leopards and the teams that are going to do the maintenance. I insist a lot that the Leopards have an exclusive purpose: defense, never aggression against Russia.
Why has the opposition leader been denied a trip to Latvia to visit the Spanish troops stationed there?
I have not spoken with Mr. Alberto Núñez Feijóo on this issue. He has not addressed me. I think whoever makes the agenda must have proposed a visit to Latvia, but he certainly hasn't talked to me. We have a very clear State policy: the armed forces belong to everyone. This government has never followed a partisan policy with them. The armed forces know that they have the solidarity and support of Spanish citizens. And I am sure that Mr. Feijóo expresses his solidarity with the men and women of the armed forces. I will not enter polemics that do not lead to anything.
Missile launchers will also be sent to Estonia in the near future. What is the reason for this increase in the Spanish military presence in the Baltic?
It is about naval maneuvers. A missile battery will be sent to Estonia for a period of four months, in anti-aircraft defense tasks. The maneuvers begin on April 1.
We would like to ask you about a matter that is rarely discussed. There is information that Russia, to get around the oil embargo, transfers fuel to other oil tankers on the high seas, in international waters. Ship to ship maneuvers that include the supply of Russian tankers. There have been maneuvers of this type off the coast of Ceuta. Does Spain have the possibility of intervening?
Look, I have no data on this issue, I have to be honest. I do not have any information on this subject and therefore I cannot answer the question.
The center of gravity has shifted to the eastern European flank. Aren't you concerned that the security of the southern flank is being neglected?
NATO has to look east, but it certainly has to look south as well. We are aware that the priority is the eastern flank, but Spain is absolutely committed to the southern flank. We are very concerned about the situation in the Sahel. We are concerned that there are European countries that want to withdraw from the Sahel, an essential geographical area for the security of Europe. We cannot repeat the mistake of Afghanistan. We have to be very aware that Africa is going through a difficult situation, due to the increase in food prices. We Europeans cannot claim to impose all our values and principles there. We have to be very respectful of Africa. That is the approach of Spain.
His words can be interpreted as a criticism of France, which has abandoned Mali...
I don't like to talk about any other country. Europe has to be very aware that we have to support Africa. Right now, the absolute priority is Ukraine, but we cannot forget the southern flank.
And in this context, Algeria once again has a decisive importance...
Spain always claims to have the best relations with its neighbors: with Morocco and with Algeria. And I am absolutely convinced that we will resume the best relations with Algeria.
La Vanguardia published last December that there was an attempt at mediation by the King of Jordan between Morocco and Algeria. Is the government aware of this?
Spain wants to get along as well as possible with its neighbors. We will try to ensure that relations with everyone, and of course with Algeria, which is an essential and fundamental country, return to being the best.
There is insistent talk of continuing to expand defense budgets throughout Europe. The war in Ukraine pushes in that direction. Do you think that the current Spanish government formula could meet this objective without breaking?
Today everyone is aware that investing in security and investing in defense is investing in peace. It is investing in industry and creating jobs. We must forget about the tics of the last century. We live in the 21st century. I consider myself an absolutely progressive person, committed to human rights. I am proud to be part of the Government of Pedro Sánchez and to be Minister of Defense. In the anguishing weeks of the pandemic, those who were with the elderly were the military. Those who have recently come to Turkey to save lives are the military. Those who are in Chile fighting the fires are military. For me as Minister of Defense it is a source of pride.
Are you also proud of the government alliance?
I'm talking about my pride in the armed forces. My pride is to be part of the Government of Pedro Sánchez. And therefore this is a government in which, on some issues, there are different positions. Of course, I feel very supported by the President of the Government in the sphere of State policies and Defense policy.
At what point is the negotiation with the United States for the expansion of the Rota military base? Will it go through the parliamentary process?
We are legally studying the issue. We believe that a new agreement will not be necessary. It could be solved with an addendum to the current protocol. An agreement was reached between President Sánchez and President Biden so that there will be two new destroyers in Rota between 2024 and 2026. The expansion of the anti-missile shield with more ships in Rota, in addition to serving for military protection, will create many positions of work. Right now we have the best relations with the United States, precisely because we are united in pursuing peace in Ukraine.
