The general secretary of Junts, Jordi Turull (Parets, 1966), claims to be satisfied with the agreement reached with the socialists after an intense week of negotiation in Brussels. The mistrust and differences that separate them remain unchanged, but the two groups have opened a new stage to reach a solution to the political conflict in Catalonia.
Santos Cerdán described the pact as a “historic opportunity” and Carles Puigdemont as “the path to a historic agreement.” How do you define it?
It is a framework agreement that can lead us to reach a historic pact. It lays the foundations and establishes a deep diagnosis of why this political conflict between Catalonia and Spain exists and the playing field to try to solve it. A story is made that the State had never before assumed about where the conflict arose, in its national recognition starting in 1714. The background is very important and there is a very good diagnosis in the document.
On other points it seems that they have agreed to disagree.
Our distrust towards the PSOE and towards the State is very great. But in the face of mistrust we have the mechanism of mediation, verification and international support, which can give us the guarantees to start the path. The agreement says that things have to be done differently than they have been done in the last four years.
Is it a message for ERC?
It is a message for the solution and for the PSOE: If you think that with a dialogue table once a year in which the result of the meeting is to meet again and dialogue... you are wrong. We are talking about negotiation and agreement with certain rules of the game. Dialogue is a personal attitude. You can dialogue and then get nowhere.
Right now there are three different spaces for negotiation or dialogue. Can they end up unified?
We'll see. To begin with, we start with the agreed mechanism, which from what we are told is different from the others. That's what the PSOE tells us, that the other is not international. We are not talking about people, we are talking about a verification and support mechanism.
Is it already agreed?
Yes. But it is a very serious issue and the first thing that the people who will be part of it ask for is that there be absolute discretion and confidentiality until at the table, the three parties, PSOE, them and us, it is decided whether to make public any name or not.
Where will the meetings be?
You have to choose in which European city or cities they will be made. It has to be abroad because Puigdemont cannot come to Spain. They will be once a month and we start in November.
They warn the PSOE that the future stability of the legislature is subject to compliance.
It will be conditional on progress, not on pacts or meetings. The clause speaks of compliance and progress in relation to national recognition and the limits of self-government. These agreements, the letter and the spirit, are known to the verifiers and they know what the objective is.
Who determines progress?
The commitments assumed are before the figure of the verifier. If we agree, for example, that in order to vote on the budgets, the Government must have complied with this, that and the other, if it is not complied with, there is a mediator who attests to it and we are free to support them.
Do you think it will work?
There has to be an effort from all parties for it to work. This mechanism is not an aesthetic issue. It is serious and rigorous. Therefore, we will not say the day of the meeting, nor the people, nor who makes up one part or another.
Could this pact be the beginning of a second transition, in this case, territorial or lead to a new constitutional pact?
A new stage begins for the solution of the political conflict between Catalonia and the State. We want it to end in a historic pact and a historic commitment with Catalonia.
Is the objective the referendum?
Evidently. But that is on the part of Junts, we have to be honest. The solution to the political conflict, described in the background, is solved by asking the Catalans if they want to be an independent state or not. We do not renounce 1-O, nor the DUI, which can only be replaced by a binding referendum agreed with the State. The PSOE knows that we are here, and they are very far away. They were also with the amnesty. They said it was impossible and unconstitutional. They have moved and three months ago it was unimaginable.
Do they renounce the unilateral route?
It is a right that every nation has. Now, if you are fulfilling an agreement and it is fulfilled by the other party, you do not use it. We do not give up our positions. The PSOE does not give up its own. But an agreement that is born from a renunciation of what is essential to you is a failure. Therefore, we state that the page is not turned.
But you talk about a referendum protected by article 92 of the Constitution.
It's a solution. I have gone to Congress to defend that with Marta Rovira and Joan Herrera and the response was that there was nothing to talk about. When they say that the referendum cannot be held, we will tell them that with this article it can be done. We will also look at international law, since the agreed text does not say at any time that the limit of the agreements is the Constitution.
What is the alternative if they don't get the referendum? Will there be a strategic change?
When one thing doesn't work but you maintain the objective, you change strategy. Now we will dedicate ourselves to making this happen well and we will put all our efforts there.
Is lawfare mentioned in the bill?
It only contains legal concepts and lawfare is a political concept, that is why it appears.
Are situations like Laura Borràs or Gonzalo Boye covered?
An amnesty law is not written based on names. That would be talking about a general pardon. We talk about facts and criminal types.
If the rule comes into force you will not be disqualified. Do you see yourself as a candidate?
If I am free from the disqualification sentence, President Carles Puigdemont will also be free and, therefore, the first person we will ask is him. I think there is consensus on that in the party.
What does the amnesty mean to you?
It has been difficult to make them understand that the amnesty does not resolve the political conflict. What it allows is to sit on equal terms.
How do you assess the response of Justice to the future law?
You have to be careful because there are very good judges and prosecutors in the State and in Catalonia, but the leadership has believed that it owns the State and there are people who put their democratic convictions behind the sacrosanct unity of Spain.
Do you fear the lack of understanding of some sectors of the independence movement? There has already been criticism.
I can understand it because we are starting a new, unknown path and it can generate distrust. I understand that there are people who say be careful, they will sneak it in again. There may be some disappointed people on that line who say it should not be signed. But we have to look for alternatives. We have not made an agreement to shelve or anesthetize the independence movement.
ERC now extends its hand to coordinate in Madrid
Of the reasons why we left the Government, now ERC raises the flag and asks us to coordinate... They denied the mediator and now they raise the flag. How many times do they talk about independence or a referendum? What we will not do is coordinate to lower our great political objective.
Were there contacts with the PP?
Officials, none. We decided that we would talk to them if they wanted and that we would not propose fewer things to them than to the PSOE. We want to solve the conflict, no matter with whom. But if the PP gets closer it loses Vox.
