Salmond: "Many in Catalonia overlook the fact that it took Scotland decades to have a referendum"

During the conversation with Alex Salmond (Linlithgow, 1954) there is always an idea: that whoever follows her gets it, that if you want to move towards independence you have to persist until you make your opponent's life “impossible”.

Thomas Osborne
Thomas Osborne
20 August 2022 Saturday 23:32
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Salmond: "Many in Catalonia overlook the fact that it took Scotland decades to have a referendum"

During the conversation with Alex Salmond (Linlithgow, 1954) there is always an idea: that whoever follows her gets it, that if you want to move towards independence you have to persist until you make your opponent's life “impossible”. The former Scottish Prime Minister, former leader of the Scottish National Party (SNP) and now at the head of the minority party ALBA, has gone to Prada de Conflent, to the Universitat Catalana d'Estiu, to Anna Arqué, to the International Commission of Citizens Europeus (ICEC) to give a talk on “The right to independence”. Salmond attends La Vanguardia at the Casa Fuster in Barcelona. He was the architect of the 2014 referendum. Now the Scottish Prime Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, is proposing another one for October 19, 2023, but Salmond discusses the strategy with him, especially his idea of ​​going to the Supreme Court.

Is Sturgeon acting diligently?

The only way to get a referendum is to force the new prime minister, probably Mrs Liz Truss, to grant section 30, the same device that I negotiated in 2012 with David Cameron for an agreed referendum. But Truss has said no. And secondly, [Sturgeon's] strategy is to go to the UK High Court in London to ask permission. It's like praying to the Virgin Mary. I think that the chances of the Supreme Court saying “yes, go ahead and hold a referendum” are almost the same as the Spanish Supreme Court saying the same thing to Catalonia.

What is your relationship with Sturgeon?

I haven't talked to her for some time. But if there is a referendum or there is an independence drive from all the parties, there will be no difficulty for ALBA to fight and support it.

What do you propose?

A political campaign sustained over time to force the conservative government to grant it. This requires political urgency, imagination, will, popular mobilization and parliamentary intervention. Nothing for which the SNP seems to be prepared. I don't think it's impossible to do it, because Britain is in a weak and dangerous political-economic condition. It seems to be an excellent time to force the issue. Or as they used to say in Ireland, England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity.

“There is absolute chaos under the sky; the situation is excellent,” said Mao Zedong.

The national movements in Scotland and Catalonia tend to focus entirely on the goal of independence, how to achieve it, debate and discuss it endlessly. And they don't always pay enough attention to what happens in the parent state. That phrase I have uttered was coined by Daniel O'Connell, who saw the difficulties within the British Empire as a significant moment for Ireland to claim independence from it. So perhaps there is a lesson from Ireland for Scotland and for Catalonia: we should pay more attention to the difficulties of the state, be it Great Britain or Spain, and see the opportunity to move towards independence. We should not be obsessed only with what is happening in Catalonia or Scotland.

By “opportunity” do you mean the highest taxes in seven decades, the highest inflation in forty years, frozen wages, etc?

There is double-digit inflation. People face electricity bills that have already gone up 40% and plan to raise them another 60%. There is a great dissatisfaction in almost all the main unions and they are going on strike or are about to do so. The incoming prime minister finds herself in total chaos from her predecessor, Boris Johnson. So it would seem like an excellent time to set another problem on her arrival. The great chess players, the great tennis players and anyone who participates in a sports competition, the greatest of them will always be attentive to his opponent.

Is it also a good time for Catalan sovereignty?

I don't have a magic formula, but I persuaded the British state to agree to a referendum. Often in Catalonia they say “oh, we should go the Scottish way”, as if it had been easy. And it took decades, many, many years to get to the point of holding the referendum! Don't expect your opponent to agree immediately. You have to convince him that the alternative to agreement is less acceptable than an agreement, it is more uncomfortable, more of a political problem.

If the High Court denies Scotland that it can hold a referendum without the need for London's go-ahead, would you agree to frame the UK general election as a plebiscite, as Sturgeon proposes?

Plebiscitary elections cannot be sought. And I don't agree with this going to the Supreme Court. I would first pass the legislation through the Scottish Parliament to take a stronger position, as the courts are sometimes reluctant to overturn democratic legislation. But plebiscitary elections are elections... If they have to be different from elections, in which all kinds of other issues are discussed besides independence, then the independentistas would have to fight under a single banner, under a candidate for the independence in each electoral district. Otherwise, it would become a normal choice. And secondly, if they do take place, it should be done by a majority of seats, not votes, because you would be putting up a barrier to success: there is no political party that [in a UK general election] has achieved a majority of votes in Scotland since the Second World War.

And if Westminster doesn't allow the referendum, would it consider the UK an undemocratic state?

Also many in Catalonia, after getting London to accept a referendum, said: "These nice people in Westminster....why can't these cruel people from Madrid agree with this democratic element?", overlooking the 50 years that had elapsed to reach that situation. However, it seems that since 2014 London has learned more from Madrid than Madrid could have learned from London. And London's attitude now is totally undemocratic. To make them change their minds, you have to make their lives miserable.

Would you support a referendum like the one on 1-O, which the Spanish justice system declared illegal?

There is no concept of an illegal referendum. Unless you're stupid enough to go to Supreme Court for a ruling... which I wouldn't do. Referendums are neither legal nor illegal. A democratic vote or an expression of the people cannot be defined as illicit. Referendums can be agreed, or self-initiated, declarations of independence can be agreed, or they can be unilateral. In international politics, things are accepted or not accepted. The key is, of course, international acceptance. You become an independent state when everyone says you are.

The CUP believes that referendums in Scotland and Catalonia should be synchronized and voted on the same day. It is a good idea?

I do not know. But I do think it is important that there is much more communication and contact and exchange of experiences between Scotland, Catalonia and Ireland, and others. There are shared experiences, which are very important because these three countries have tried all the political initiatives that you can think of.

JxCat defends that the results of 1-O are still valid and ERC plays the negotiation card. What do you agree with?

I am not going to parachute down from Scotland and tell the Catalans what to think and do. What initiative to take? The Catalans have to judge it. But when you get down to doing something, you have to deliver. Churchill, in 1956, at the time of the Suez Canal crisis, said to his successor: "He would never have started it, but if he had started it, he would have finished it." If you prepare and mobilize people with the expectation of success, you have to finish it. You can't start it and not finish it.

Some of those who organized 1-O have been in prison and others are outside of Spain. What is your opinion?

I was delighted that they were released and that there was a change of approach by the new Spanish government. But I come from a state, the United Kingdom, that imprisons people, and that agrees to deport Julian Assange because the United States orders it; that jails a journalist in Scotland for telling the truth. I come from a state that is far from perfect.

After voting in 2014 and missing out on an independent Scotland, did you feel Brexit was a stab in the back?

The no side in 2014 argued that if Scotland voted for independence it would leave the European Union and then obviously Scotland did not vote for independence. Brexit caused many people in Scotland who were pro-Europe to think: "We've been sold out, we've been cheated, we've been lied to." So more than a stab in the back, it was a stab in the front.