A week after the elections in Andalusia, in which the Spanish left has suffered a strong corrective, and on the eve of the NATO general assembly in Madrid, the President of the Government, Pedro Sánchez, has granted a long interview to La Vanguardia on the most important issues of today, starting with the war in Ukraine and its political, economic and social consequences. The interview took place last Friday at the Moncloa Palace and was updated yesterday, according to the events in Melilla.
President, four months have passed since the start of the war in Ukraine. Where we are? What are the costs of this war going to be for European countries? Will we be able to bear them?
In these two years we have had to deal with a pandemic, with all its consequences. And now, the war in the Ukraine, with all its uncertainty and also with serious consequences. We do not know how long it will last and how hard it will affect us. There are some certainties, however. First certainty: this war has been started by Vladimir Putin. This war is called Putin and peace is called Europe. This is a contest between an autocracy and a country, Ukraine, that wants to embrace the European democratic model. Second certainty: our obligation is to defend Ukraine because with it we are defending Europe. For this reason, the European Council has just given the status of candidate to Ukraine, and also to Moldova. Also to Georgia, with other conditions. Third certainty: the unity of Europe is fundamental, as it was during the pandemic. We must preserve that unity to help Ukraine and to articulate measures that help Europeans to cushion and fairly distribute the burdens of war. Fourth certainty: this fair distribution of burdens must also be done in Spain. And we will do.
Various leaders of the Atlantic Alliance have spoken of a long war. A long war supposes to open a new historical time in Europe. A time of great uncertainty.
It can be long. Putin has been redefining his military objectives and Ukraine is showing a high capacity for resistance. From there, what we must do is strengthen European unity, as we did in the epidemic. We must strengthen ourselves to be able to help Ukraine and to be able to deal with the economic and social consequences of the war. The energy problem needs to be addressed. In September, the European Commission is going to present its proposal to reform the electricity market, an issue in which Spain has been at the forefront, with the formula for capping the price of gas used to manufacture electricity, the Iberian exception that we have negotiated so laboriously. It was first seen as a singularity of Spain and Portugal. Today it can serve as a model. Secondly, we will have to reform the stability and growth pact: we need to give certainty to the financial markets, but we are facing emergencies that must be responded to. And thirdly, we must move towards a banking union. We must achieve a stronger European Union. A strong Europe is what the Putin regime fears most. For Putin, democracy is the real threat. Let's not forget that this is the main key to the war in Ukraine.
However, different positions are outlined within the European Union. Germany, France and Italy are increasingly advocating a negotiated exit in the shortest possible time. Western Europe thinks about the risk to its economies. Poland, the three Baltic republics and other Eastern European countries, including Scandinavia, with the active support of the United Kingdom, encourage Ukraine to wage a long-term war. Where is Spain?
We have defended from the beginning that the economic sanctions on Putin and his oligarchs must be maintained until the last Russian soldier leaves a country that is not his. We have always defended that an open dialogue with Putin should be maintained. Spain feels represented in this aspect by Germany and France and we believe that when the time comes for peace talks, these two great countries are the ones that should represent Europe. In short: unity and sanctions until the last Russian soldier leaves Ukrainian soil.
NATO's general assembly meets this week in Madrid. For a few days, Spain will become the center of the Western bloc and also the great auditorium for tensions in the world. What can you expect from that meeting?
The NATO General Assembly in Madrid is very important. One of Putin's mistakes has been to revitalize NATO politically and revive a European consciousness that is more sensitive than ever to defense. The surveys on this speak clearly. The Madrid assembly must renew NATO's strategic concept, a doctrinal document that is reviewed every ten years. For Spain, it is very important that this strategic concept includes the southern flank, that is, that it takes seriously into consideration the risks that can be generated for the stability and security of Europe from the Sahel, in sub-Saharan Africa, where Russia is reinforcing its presence . I believe that this assembly will serve to place Spain in the place it deserves on the international scene. And I also believe that the NATO general assembly that is going to be held in Madrid will be an opportunity for peace.
Defense Budgets. Do you have a parliamentary majority to approve greater military spending in Spain? Can you address that goal without breaking up the current coalition government?
The desirable goal is to place the defense budget in a few years at 2% of GDP. A budget to deter, not to attack. A Defense budget that can generate economic opportunities, in the field of industry. I think of Galicia, I think of Cádiz, I think of Castilla-La Mancha, to give three examples. The left must open a debate on the advisability of having defense budgets that guarantee security and deterrence. This debate is already open in various European countries. Denmark has proposed a referendum to increase its defense spending. Countries like Sweden and Finland are knocking on NATO's doors.
The Government has just approved its second package of measures to try to curb inflation. The special tax on electricity companies that will be approved at the end of the year draws attention. Do you want to place the tension between the Government and the electricity companies at the center of public debate?
Look, the difficulties of many cannot be the joys of a few. Measures must be taken for a fair distribution of burdens. This progressive coalition government is hit hard because we are an uncomfortable government, since we do not forget who we govern for, we govern for the working middle class and for the most vulnerable. An economic right wing hits us with its political and media terminals, but they are not going to break us.
Voters have just hit the left in Andalusia in democratic elections. Has the setback hit?
The previous leadership of the Popular Party designed a calendar with early elections in Castilla y León and later in Andalusia, to take advantage of a moment of difficulty in the country and convey a sense of political provisionality to public opinion. They have been doing it since the motion of censure in 2018. First of all, my duty as a democrat is to recognize the victory of Juan Manuel Moreno Bonilla in Andalusia and transfer from here to the Andalusian people and the Andalusian Government that they are going to have a loyal collaboration with the Government of Spain. As general secretary of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, I must add that we are going to support and reinforce Juan Espadas so that he can carry out an effective opposition task for the benefit of Andalusians.
Comparatively, United We Can has regressed more than the PSOE in Andalusia. Do you fear for the stability of United We Can? Sometimes you refer to Yolanda Díaz as if she did not belong to United We Can. Perhaps you have thought about making an electoral ticket with Yolanda Díaz?
[Smile]. As I have told you, there is an economic, political and media right that is very active against the government. They won't break us. That is why I am a great defender of the autonomy of politics, as the PSOE has always been. Therefore, I also defend the political autonomy of United We Can. The only thing I expect from them is success. I think it will be good for this country that there is a political space articulated around Yolanda Díaz. They have all my respect as an autonomous political organization that they are. I hope they are right.
Spain, Morocco and Algeria, the impossible triangle. There is a feeling that Spain has dressed a saint to undress another. Normalizing relations with Morocco has cost us the enmity of Algeria. It was inevitable?
Let's go by parts. In the first place, Spain can have good relations with Algeria and with Morocco at the same time. I don't give up on it. Secondly, as President of the Government of Spain, I had the obligation to resolve a bilateral crisis situation with Morocco that we had been dragging on for several months. Morocco is a strategic partner for Spain, not only when it comes to controlling illegal immigration, as we have just seen in Melilla. Morocco is also important for Spain in the fight against terrorism. And it is becoming more and more important economically and commercially. Therefore, relations with Morocco are of great strategic importance for Spain.
President, more than thirty people have just died at the Melilla fence... The images are terrible.
We regret the loss of human lives, in this case of desperate people who were looking for a better life and who are victims and instruments of mafias and criminals who organize violent actions against our border. Victims of the violent assaults organized by the mafias are the migrants themselves, the citizens of Melilla and Ceuta, and also the security forces and bodies of Spain and Morocco. I will never get tired of expressing my support for the Civil Guard and the Police. I also appreciate the work of the Moroccan Gendarmerie. Morocco fights and also suffers from this violence. Those most responsible for the tragedy that occurred and the unfortunate loss of human lives are the international mafias that organize the violent attacks.
Has Spain run out of agenda with Algeria?
With Algeria we must try to expand the radius of collaboration, beyond the energy relationship. I am referring to emigration, security and economic cooperation. Spain does not underestimate Algeria at all. Algeria has a great specific weight in Africa that we recognize.
It will not be easy to rebuild the relationship with Algeria, after having changed its position on Western Sahara.
On the issue of Western Sahara, Spain has not moved from the framework of the United Nations. We defend a solution that is only possible with the agreement of the two parties under the tutelage of the UN. This is the position currently defended by the United States and important European countries. We remain within the framework of the UN.
Business circles are concerned about the pace of deployment and execution of European funds. Brussels sources point to a certain delay.
I disagree that from Brussels a different analysis is being made than the one I am going to explain to you. Brussels recognizes that Spain is the most advanced country in the execution of European funds (Next Generation). We are the country that has received the most financial resources from community institutions. I also believe that the effect of European funds is already beginning to be felt in the real economy.
It is now one year since the pardon was granted to Catalan pro-independence politicians who were in prison. A year later, the impression is spreading that the dialogue between the Government and the Generalitat de Catalunya is interrupted. The dialogue table does not meet and reproaches abound. There is a feeling of paralysis.
We want to meet the dialogue table as soon as possible. No matter how many difficulties there are, dialogue is the only solution. I have always told the Catalan separatists and Spanish society as a whole that this is going to be a long dialogue, which is going to require determination and patience. The agenda of the reunion is still valid by the Government of Spain. The clemency measures were widely criticized by the economic, political and media right-wing to which I have referred before, but a large majority of Spanish society and a very large majority of Catalan society see the virtues of that courageous decision that he took the progressive government. Our determination is intact. We would like that not only Esquerra Republicana be at that dialogue table; Junts per Catalunya should also be there.
Would you be willing to reform the Penal Code to review the crime of sedition? That reform was raised a while ago and never materialized.
We have always defended updating the Penal Code. We have to modernize it and adapt some precepts to the democracies around us. It is an organic law that requires an absolute majority in Congress: 176 seats. It seems to me that today we do not have the majority to address this change.
The data on budget execution, referring to the 2021 financial year, have caused a scandal in Catalonia. Also in the Valencian Community. Very low. The lowest in all of Spain. Is there any mechanism in the State apparatus that stops investments in the Mediterranean axis?
I share the meaning of your reflection. We have a level of improvable budget execution. But the whole truth must be told to avoid feelings of grievance, both in Catalonia and in the Valencian Community. We had the lockdown, we had the supply bottlenecks after the height of the pandemic, and now we have the war in Ukraine. Our level of budget execution has been improvable, as has also been that of the autonomous communities themselves, for example in Catalonia, in terms of infrastructure and territorial investments. I can say that in this first quarter of 2022 we have increased budget execution by more than 60%.
In Madrid it seems that there are no bottlenecks. A budget execution of more than 100% in the 2021 financial year.
They are right but that data has nothing to do with territorial investments. This data is due to the rescue of the radial highways of Madrid, one of the poisoned legacies left to us by the right. In the same way, I must add that there are measures for the benefit of the citizens of Catalonia that do not count as territorial investments, I am referring, for example, to the extinction of the AP-7 and AP-2 motorway tolls. The important thing is not the justification that I can now offer you. The important thing is that we are improving the level of budget execution this year.
Some recently published audios reveal the origin of the so-called Catalunya operation. An illicit machination from the state apparatus to deal with a political problem. A former Minister of the Interior conspiring with a former Police Commissioner who acted outside the law and who ended up in prison for it. Has the Government considered going to the Prosecutor's Office?
There was a parliamentary investigation commission on the so-called Catalunya operation that drew its conclusions. The current Government has offered the National High Court all the information that has been required about these events, which occurred under another Executive. In addition to asking me, the questions should be addressed to the Popular Party. I have not heard the Popular Party sing a mea culpa. I have not seen him assuming political responsibilities for the instrumentalization of public institutions and state apparatuses in favor of his interests. Instrumentalization that serves as gasoline for those who want to break with everything and ends up questioning the functioning of democracy. It is not this Government that must respond, it is the previous one.
Can it happen again?
That should be asked to the Popular Party
Finally, is the Midcat gas pipeline going to be restarted, interrupted three years ago, to reinforce the gas interconnection with France and the rest of the European Union?
Yes. The Midcat is going to be resumed within the framework of the European energy strategy. We want the Midcat to be compatible in the future with the transport of green hydrogen. And a potential gas pipeline between the port of Barcelona and Italy is also contemplated. We are also advancing in the electrical interconnections with France. I have to admit that the Macron Administration has unblocked some electrical interconnections that are very important. In the field of energy independence, the entire Iberian Peninsula is facing a great opportunity. It should be kept in mind.
