Pedro Sánchez receives La Vanguardia on Friday morning, when the bill that revises the crime of sedition is registered in Congress. He is aware that the decisions he is taking to deflate the situation in Catalonia could lead to electoral erosion in the rest of Spain, but he believes that it is the best solution. He is convinced that, over time, as happened with the pardons of the procés leaders, public opinion will prove him right. These are his explanations.
Why has it been decided to abolish sedition and has the crime of aggravated public disorder been created?
It is an investiture commitment. I always said that we were determined to standardize this crime with the main European democracies. In recent weeks, we have known that different political groups were favorable, and that is why we have raised it. It is a step towards harmony in Catalonia. One of my greatest satisfactions as president is to see that coexistence and not confrontation prevail in Catalonia today.
Does this make it easier for Marta Rovira to return and be able to stand for election, or also Oriol Junqueras?
Absolutely. The objective is to be aware that, from a criminal point of view, we had sanctions that are not compatible with those of the main European democracies. Germany abolished the crime of sedition in 1970 and our Penal Code was drafted in 1822. Secondly, as president, in Catalonia I have always supported strict compliance with the law and the Constitution, and for relaxation measures to overcome the tear that was the unilateral declaration of independence in 2017. Of course, crimes do not disappear. Carles Puigdemont, when he has to appear, that he will appear, I am convinced of it, before the Spanish justice system, he will have to be held accountable for the crimes committed in 2017.
And looking to the future, so that people understand it, if the Government of Catalonia now proposes a new referendum or a declaration of independence, what criminal consequences would it have?
The penalties are homologated with Europe, but the crime of aggravated public disorder, which is similar in other European democracies, would allow them to be punished by justice. In any case, it is important to draw lessons from what happened, and one of the main ones is that politics has instruments such as article 155 of the Constitution, for example, to intervene in a situation like the one experienced in the Parliament of Catalonia in September 2017 with the disconnection laws. But the important thing is that the situation in Catalonia is resoundingly better now than in 2017. And what a political leader has to do is always contribute to harmony and coexistence. It is obvious that there will be nostalgic for the confrontation, but I, as president, am part of an immense list of Spanish men and women, many Catalans, who advocate coexistence.
Has this been a concession to ERC to support the budgets?
No, the independence movement has always asked for amnesty, which has nothing to do with what we are proposing. You don't have to mix the discussions. On many occasions it is said that coexistence has a cost. No, what has cost are ten years of political and social confrontation in Catalonia. Look, a few days ago we learned of an important investment that will make Barcelona one of the few European capitals where chips from a large company like Cisco will be designed, with whom we have been working from the Government for months to materialize this investment. . A few days ago we also learned of Volkswagen Seat's commitment to modernize and manufacture electric cars in Spain and locate a factory in Spain. I am convinced that in the Catalonia of 2017 these investments would not have taken place. And they take place in the Catalonia of 2022 due to the firm commitment that the Government of Spain is making for reunion and coexistence.
Aren't you afraid that the message will be sent to the rest of Spain that defying the state is almost free? How are you going to explain it to many people who consider that what happened was a coup? Is the State weakening in the face of a possible threat?
The present and future of Catalonia is called coexistence. Confrontation is the past. But the fact that the independence leaders have been in prison for more than four years, isn't that something that has come at a personal cost to them? That we have fugitive leaders in other parts of Europe, doesn't it also entail a personal and family cost for many of them and their families? And I insist, we are not decriminalizing what happened in 2017.
Six months before the elections, don't you have the feeling that you are playing it? Have you considered that this decision is not convenient for you?
Churchill said that politicians have to think about the next generations and not about the next elections. Well, we are thinking of the next generations of Catalans and Spaniards who do not deserve to suffer what we suffered in 2017 again. Furthermore, the main task of any leader in a context like the current one is not to polarise. Bolsonarism, Trumpism, which unfortunately also circulate in Spanish and Catalan politics, are not the solution. The coexistence has no cost. What has cost were those ten years of political confrontation. This Government inherited a situation from the previous administration –not caused by them, since it was evidently the independence movement that caused it–, because the Popular Party did not implement measures to put on track a crisis that led to a unilateral declaration of independence. I do not want the next tenant of Moncloa to inherit such a dramatic situation of territorial and social fracture as the one I inherited from Mariano Rajoy. And in that sense, I reproach the PP for continuing to use the territorial confrontation as one more instrument of political wear on the Government and not of solidarity and co-responsibility.
The judges of the Supreme have the feeling that the Government is amending the plan and that this reform leaves them unprotected before European justice, what do you think?
On the contrary. One of the main mistakes of the PP was to leave the answer to this constitutional crisis in the hands of justice. The main lesson is that we should have activated article 155 of the Constitution earlier and intervened in a situation that had clearly gone off the rails with the disconnection laws approved in Parliament. That said, both with the clemency measures and with this proposal to reform the Criminal Code, we convey deep respect to the judges. I have always done so in my statements to the Supreme Court, to which the political incapacity of the previous administration endorsed an exclusive responsibility that the then Prime Minister should have assumed.
This does not resolve everything that happened in 2017. There are still leaders awaiting trial for those events. Some, accused of embezzlement, who could go to jail. Is embezzlement going to change too?
The proposal of the two groups that support the Government is to change the crime of sedition and homologate it to Europe. Now comes the parliamentary process. The groups are free to present the amendments they consider. Let's wait for that process.
The PP broke the agreement on the renewal of the judicial leadership precisely because this sedition reform was going to be carried out. It is clear that there is no turning back. What solution are you thinking? How to solve the problem of appointments to the Judiciary?
Spain is currently suffering a constitutional crisis unprecedented in its 40 years, with a blockade in the renewal of the General Council of the Judiciary and the Constitutional Court that has lasted four years. There is a drive in Spanish conservatism to import practices from Trump and Bolsonaro. That is part of the DNA of the extreme right, and there is a significant number of PP leaders who are buying into these Trumpist and Bolsonarist tactics that try to poison coexistence by saying, for example, that I am trying to impose a regime like the one in Nicaragua in Spain. . From the first minute, the political, economic and media right of this country has labeled this Government as illegitimate and, from there, they conclude that no agreement can be made to comply with constitutional obligations. I believed that Mr. Feijóo was going to impose moderation and common sense. But the rupture of this agreement that we had almost ready has opened the door wide to extremist discourse in the PP, as we are seeing in some territorial leaders.
But what is the government going to do from now on?
We are not going to change the majorities for the election of the members of the General Council of the Judiciary. But the Government is going to fulfill its obligation to appoint the two magistrates to allow the renewal of the Constitutional Court. We would also like the conservative members of the CGPJ to comply with the law and reach an agreement to appoint the two Constitutional magistrates that correspond to them this month.
Now he was talking about rights and freedoms… The European Parliament has issued a report saying that there was no national security justification for spying on independentistas, an espionage that he attributes to Spain. That leaves the Spanish reputation in question.
Spain's reputation in Europe is extraordinarily positive. This is a pro-European government that has contributed to solving many problems, such as the joint purchase of vaccines, the Next Generation funds or the intervention of the energy market. This is a report put forward by some MEPs that we respect and will look at with interest, but it goes back in time. We are talking about 2017, 2018…
