Audrey Azoulay: "It is an illusion to think of a world governed by intellectuals"

The idyll between Barcelona and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (Unesco) continues.

Thomas Osborne
Thomas Osborne
18 May 2022 Wednesday 07:05
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Audrey Azoulay: "It is an illusion to think of a world governed by intellectuals"

The idyll between Barcelona and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (Unesco) continues. Audrey Azoulay, its general manager, begins a two-day visit today. She inaugurates the III World Conference on Higher Education and the new UNESCO Center for Social Sciences and Humanities, located in CaixaForum Macaya. Another appointment on her agenda is to renew the agreement with Abertis, which co-finances the Unesco International Center for Mediterranean Biosphere Reserves, in Castellet i la Gornal. La Vanguardia talks with Azoulay in her office in Paris.

Has Barcelona become an important pole in the world scientific and cultural network?

Yes, my visit proves it. In Barcelona there has been a significant investment by various authorities in the areas in which UNESCO works. There is an epicenter of university and science education, in a very cultural environment, with its urban heritage. It is a beautiful story between Unesco, Spain and Barcelona.

Political multilateralism faces a difficult moment. What is the state of health of cultural multilateralism?

At this time, because of wars like the one in Ukraine, we see the limits of certain UN mechanisms, but at the same time I have verified that, thanks to a very concrete multilateralism, committed to projects, it can function very well and there is room for consensus. In the 75 years of life of UNESCO we see the success in the protection of heritage, throughout the world, whether it be the temples of Nubia or the reconstruction of Mosul (Iraq), the largest action in its history.

What is the situation in Afghanistan after the new seizure of power by the Taliban?

Tragic, an absolute setback compared to the last twenty years. Afghanistan was a symbol of the deliberate destruction of cultural heritage, with the Buddhas of Bamiyan. So it couldn't be helped. UNESCO then accompanied the largest literacy campaign in Afghan history, especially for girls. It was progress. There was also a cultural memory project in Bamiyan, but now it's completely regressed. (The Taliban) made promises about girls' education. None have been respected. Every day there is an additional regression, also for women journalists, for judges. I appealed to the international community and above all to the donor countries to draw red lines. One of them is the education of girls.

And what comes to them from Ukraine?

We must safeguard its cultural heritage, as a testimony of the past and also as a leaven of peace and cohesion for the future. We are following the situation very closely. Our experts provide daily advice to professionals in the field. We have helped protect buildings and keep works of art safe. Unfortunately, UNESCO counts, so far, the total or partial destruction of more than 130 cultural sites, including some 60 religious buildings.

You are of multicultural origin, from a Moroccan Jewish family. How do you see the constant and virulent debate, especially in France, about life in common with the Muslim community?

I can speak from my personal experience, which is indeed from a family that came from Morocco, a Muslim but also multicultural country, with Jewish, Berber, and Arab-Muslim roots. In my own career in France I have experienced it as an opportunity. It allows me to speak to more people, understand and know better. What I deduce, for my mission at UNESCO, is the importance of education in diversity, of valuing difference. We need it in an interconnected world with increasing mobility, not only physical but also virtual.

In this globalized system, there is a need to preserve cultural diversity, languages ​​and other things, such as gastronomy, but isn't it an exaggeration to declare the baguette or pizza as intangible heritage of humanity?

What is certain is that intangible heritage is a very important component of heritage. For a long time it was underestimated. However, some traditions are a source of pride for the communities that practice them. It is a recognition that allows them to be on the world stage. Acknowledging a particular heritage gives you dignity. There are applications that may seem anecdotal. UNESCO is looking for the history of that tradition, its more cultural dimension, and not the more commercial one, because the meaning would be lost.

Unesco is protective. Are you worried about the threat of disappearance of the paper press?

What worries me is the disappearance of newsrooms with a level and training, of professionalism. I am more concerned with the format. I read the paper one but I understand that it is read online. I am more concerned about newsrooms, which have a cost. The economic model, not only in the culture sector, is completely disrupted by digitization, by an online advertising market that has passed into the hands of Internet giants and often uses content without fair remuneration. It is necessary to invent a fairer form of remuneration that allows financing the work of journalism.

Would the world be better off if intellectuals and scientists had more political power?

We cannot have the illusion that the world is governed by scientists and intellectuals. One of the greatest tragedies in history, Nazism, was a scientific, educated regime, with a form of culture but without any value or respect for human dignity. We cannot have the illusion of a government of the intellectual and scientific world. But we absolutely need them in public decisions, that their voices be respected. In the climate tragedy, scientists say things and they are not listened to or understood enough to transform what they say into action. And that is drama.


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