The expert in Brazilian military history Antonio Jorge Ramalho gave this interview on the coup in Brazil to La Vanguardia, in the office of the prestigious Institute of International Relations of the University of Brasilia. Ramalho headed the Cooperation Department of the Brazilian Ministry of Defense. He installed and directed the UNASUR Defense School, based in Quito.
The Brazilian military still has a lot of political power 35 years after leaving the government. Much more than in other Latin American countries. How is that?'
They have been very smart and skillful. They use a self-promotion campaign, propaganda about the services they provide to society; since the eighties they sell an image of morality, integrity and competence. But this has been greatly eroded by his involvement in the Bolsonaro administration.
How do they promote themselves?
They act in parliament through lobbies. They put their best officers as advisers. Every time there are elections, newly arrived deputies to Congress are courted with great skill. The military will have been informed about their electoral bases, their interests. They use their intelligence service to get information. They do it all with a lot of "charme" and with powers of seduction.
But isn't Brazil in the situation of Venezuela, where the military have become businessmen?
No. But that's the risk.
Where does the coup in some sectors of the army come from?
They have not had a single voice. Already in the seventies and eighties there was a reaction against the opening. On October 12, 1977, an attempted coup was carried out against those who supported the opening and liberalization defended by Ernesto Geisel (president between 1974 and 1979). A group of reactionary soldiers, headed by Sylvio Frota, called General Medici, president in the hardest years (1969-74), to ask for his support. Medici advised them to take a cold shower to calm their spirits and focus their heads. Do you know who Sylvio Frota's adviser was? Augusto Heleno (Bolsonaro's vice-presidential candidate).
In other words, is there continuity between the most recalcitrant of the dictatorship and the Bolsonaro military?
Effectively. It is the orphans of the dictatorship who tried to stop the opening. Those who supported the attack against the military in the convention center, Riocentro, in 1981, blaming the left. They have not been able to interrupt the democratic process; but they have taken refuge in the military clubs, in the reserves and in other organizations. They have stuck together; they think they are good for the idea of the nation. They are sincere and therein lies the danger.
Sincere in the sense that they sincerely do not believe in democracy?
They think that they are above the corrupt society; but, as we saw with the military that commanded Bolsonaro's Ministry of Health, they are as corrupt and inefficient as anyone. Before, with the dictatorship, there was an esprit de corps and they kicked out the corrupt from the institution. That discipline still exists, but those who came to power after the restructuring of Bolsonaro's command in 2021 were the least competent, the most reactionary, people like Luis Eduardo Ramos and Augusto Heleno.
Has Bolsonaro welcomed those orphans of the dictatorship?
The truth is that little has changed in military education; there is a breeding ground for radicalism, for people who have proto-fascist thinking; they are with Bolsonaro and they are in the army; they have a connection with Freemasonry; it is people who are now informed within the bubbles on Facebook, wasapp; Bolsonaro has known how to mobilize them; since 2014, Bolsonaro has campaigned within schools and national academies. It's illegal, but he's done it. Bolsonaro has very elaborate tactical intelligence.
Are these Bolsonaro soldiers coup leaders?
Coup makers if necessary. But the project so far has been to do it through democratic institutions. There is a coincidence of interests in the army, above all. But also in the other armed forces.
Do you think that the dismissal of the army commander, General Arruda, will cause any reaction against Lula in the army?
The false idea that Lula intends to politicize the Armed Forces will enter the conspiracy narrative. This will circulate on social networks, articles by retired officers in the press and in military clubs. But there will be no institutional reaction against Lula.
Part of the PT is calling for a stronger purge of Bolsonaristas in the Armed Forces. Do you think it would be advisable?
It would be smart to replace all the soldiers who are in the palaces to have a minimally normal life. Replacing them by advising them beforehand will be enough.
Do you think the Minister of Defense has been too soft to date?
Yes, but maybe this is his role. The military must be given a concrete agenda in relation to the future: training to jointly protect Brazil from external threats, in a volatile and unstable context. It is his constitutional mission.
What is there to do?
The Armed Forces are politicized to the core. It is necessary to clarify its constitutional mission, reduce the number of troops, advance in interoperability, establish unity of command, define priority projects. A coherent work agenda is needed with the objectives that should be attributed to the Armed Forces. The military have sown mistrust in the Executive Branch and in society with their behavior. They are going to have to change their modus operandi if they want to regain the respect of the president and his advisers, as well as of society.
Is there any possibility that a group of military "rebels" as this restructuring of the army progresses?
This possibility always exists in Brazil, and Bolsonaro encouraged it. But I would be very surprised. As far as can be calculated, the chiefs are still in control of the armed forces.
